Fishermen sound off on plan for commercial fishing permit system

Thanks for posting. That $15K income level is truly burdensome, IMO, kicking out the retirees who just want earn a few extra bucks while having fun.

Up here for a general Com license, all's you have to do is write a check which I've been doing for years. Not that I actually sell any fish, but the $48 license fee is offset by the 5% discount commercial license holders get at Hamilton Marine. Buy a couple of high-priced electronics for the boat and you come out ahead.

Now for the lobster or elver permits, that's a limited and regulated story. Permits for other things like sea urchins and scallops easily acquired.

The whole thing is broken. I can't see yanking a guys license for not making enough money at it. Now a first glance it seems clear that yanking the licenses that haven't been used wouldn't hurt anyone.

Now for the lobster or elver permits, that's a limited and regulated story. Permits for other things like sea urchins and scallops easily acquired.

You guy's are selling elvers? Now that I think about it wasn't there a Ph.D. from your region that was involved in the elver fishery? Are they managed by ASMFC with quotas and the like? I'm guessing they're all going live to Japan?

You guy's are selling elvers? Now that I think about it wasn't there a Ph.D. from your region that was involved in the elver fishery? Are they managed by ASMFC with quotas and the like? I'm guessing they're all going live to Japan?

Correct on all points, strict quotas, but a big bucks fishery at just over $2000/lb. They go to Japan, China and Korea as "seed" for the eel farming industry, which is big bucks. The European and Asian native eel fishery are both in big trouble so there's no elver fishing allowed. I think the only other state that allows elver fishing is NC.

Correct on all points, strict quotas, but a big bucks fishery at just over $2000/lb. They go to Japan, China and Korea as "seed" for the eel farming industry, which is big bucks. The European and Asian native eel fishery are both in big trouble so there's no elver fishing allowed. I think the only other state that allows elver fishing is NC.

Roccus, You forgot to mention the guys catching Elvers are All making more than $15 K a year. 😱 🙂

I don't blame the fishermen from Long Island for being upset. But 2 dozen fishermen really don't have clout. It's all about the numbers and how much noise you make. I find the biggest problem dealing with any government entity is that it is nearly impossible to change their mindset after they have had so many meetings, workshops and "brainstorming" sessions with the "experts in the field". Yes they have meetings to get public input, But those meetings are in fact Government mandated. Insert ("Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up") here.

The second thing is people drafting bills and even passing legislation Sure that it's the way to handle any situation that have No clue what it is like to walk in another s shoes. In Fisheries that often means never having stepped on a vessel from November till March. Never have had to rig re rig or repair gear. Never having had to spend those last couple of rough days at sea to make "my share of the profit".


Sorry for the rant (again) anyway im going to work. Thanks for the post Knuckles 👍

Roccus, You forgot to mention the guys catching Elvers are All making more than $15 K a year. 😱 🙂

True enough IF that is NY statement is income BEFORE expenses. In reality they're not netting (double entendre intended) not much more. If you take the 2019 average price of $2500 per lb and multiply it by the 9100 lbs caught this past season, each of the 1000 license holders GROSSED $22,750. After expenses like that new F150, netting, aerators, Yeti coolers, wet suits, etc., they're still probably above $15,000. That being said, I bet there are many lobstermen who are below $15,000 yearly income after expenses.

I find the biggest problem dealing with any government entity is that it is nearly impossible to change their mindset after they have had so many meetings, workshops and "brainstorming" sessions with the "experts in the field". Yes they have meetings to get public input, But those meetings are in fact Government mandated. Insert ("Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up") here.

So eloquent and succinct Donald. This IS the problem, they DO NOT include the major stakeholders in on the formulation of proposed regulations, they just rationalize the regs to the public it AFTER they've invested time and effort so it's a done deal.

What makes matters worse is the fact that many of the folks on the different committees that amass and analyze the data, or the ones proposing regulations, would be unable to point to the fish being discussed if they walked by a sales display in a fish market!!

From newsday article:

Fishermen such as Jacobs, 74, are “in a different season of our lives,” he said, and may not fish as regularly. “Yanking your license … there is something unjust about that.”

I personally know of 2 guys like Jacobs.
What's being proposed is not only unjust, its borderline criminal. But hey, its New York.

In my opinion, proper thing to do is make the license a sellable commodity. Alaska did this with the salmon fishery more than 30 yrs ago and its been very successful. This way no one would be "stripped" of the license. Those that have maintained the license and don't use it could now sell it to someone else, secure in the knowledge that if they wanted to get back in, they could.

True enough IF that is NY statement is income BEFORE expenses. In reality they're not netting (double entendre intended) not much more. If you take the 2019 average price of $2500 per lb and multiply it by the 9100 lbs caught this past season, each of the 1000 license holders GROSSED $22,750. After expenses like that new F150, netting, aerators, Yeti coolers, wet suits, etc., they're still probably above $15,000. That being said, I bet there are many lobstermen who are below $15,000 yearly income after expenses.

Absolutely a good statement.about the lobstermen Dominick. I know some guys who just about break even. oh and i know at least one who Is and has been for the last few years in the red by nearly that much. Much of that may be self inflicted im sure with the newer boats etc. But even he guys who break even do it for the love of fishing, the freedom of being self employed. A couple just because that's all they know, the way of life they grew up in .

>
Correct on all points, strict quotas, but a big bucks fishery at just over $2000/lb. They go to Japan, China and Korea as "seed" for the eel farming industry, which is big bucks. The European and Asian native eel fishery are both in big trouble so there's no elver fishing allowed. I think the only other state that allows elver fishing is NC.


Its South Carolina and its an experimental fishery for their own aquaculture facilities, no elvers are exported.

>
This IS the problem, they DO NOT include the major stakeholders in on the formulation of proposed regulations, they just rationalize the regs to the public it AFTER they've invested time and effort so it's a done deal.


Absolutely untrue. All of the federal regulations have to be proposed in the Federal register and subject to public comments before any of the regulations can be adopted. ASMFC publishes its agendas frothier meetings months in advance of the meetings and anyone can write to their representatives and or the applicable FMP manager with their comments, plus they also have a public comment period before any new regulations are adopted.

Problem is most fishermen are either too stupid or too lazy to take advantage of their ability to influence regulations.

>
Problem is most fishermen are either too stupid or too lazy to take advantage of their ability to influence regulations.

Most anglers I know are quite the opposite. For the most part, I find them intelligent and hard workers. I see them as willing to do anything they're told. But speaking for NY, you need to be pretty educated to know each and every reg, and they need to do more to educate anglers.

If they really want to know what we think they should use the Marine Registry to let us know what issues are on the table and what they need to do to reply.

The vast majority of anglers want away from the bickering and fighting over quotas but they do have an opinion.

>
Absolutely untrue. All of the federal regulations have to be proposed in the Federal register and subject to public comments before any of the regulations can be adopted. ASMFC publishes its agendas frothier meetings months in advance of the meetings and anyone can write to their representatives and or the applicable FMP manager with their comments, plus they also have a public comment period before any new regulations are adopted.

Problem is most fishermen are either too stupid or too lazy to take advantage of their ability to influence regulations.


Yes Michael, things get published in the Federal Register and comments are requested, but at that point it's already a *fait accompli. *When is the last time public comments on proposed fishery regulations actually changed something, it's a rare event!

What needs to happen is to have more involved stakeholders, *i.e.* fishermen, sitting on the committees that formulate the regulations so any blaring errors can be discussed BEFORE they're in the Federal Register. By that point, the ship has usually long left the dock. The public comments sessions have devolved into a "Hi Fellas, we're from NOAA, ASFMC, etc. and we're here to help you so bend over and enjoy!!" They're just a Dog and Pony show to try to convince you they are doing the right thing.

Yeah, a helpful Federal Regulator, more rare than an honest used-car salesman...

Its South Carolina and its an experimental fishery for their own aquaculture facilities, no elvers are exported.

SC has a small elver fishery and they do export to Asia. It's NC' with the newer fishery (2015) that is limited to stocking in-state aquaculture facilities.

From Newsday today:

Cuomo hits hold button on commercial fishing license reform plan

By Mark Harringtonmark.harrington@newsday.com @MHarringtonNews Updated August 29, 2019 3:39 PM

Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Thursday said the state would “hit the pause button” on a planned overhaul of the commercial fishing licensing system, saying regulators need more information and input to get it right.

The state two years ago hired an outside expert to review the system for issuing commercial fishing permits and come up with a list of recommendations for fixing a system many fishermen criticize as broken. Among the recommendations of consultant George Lapointe was requiring fishermen to show three years of income of $15,000 or more to qualify for their licenses.

Opposition to the recommendation was widespread in hearings last week and when they were first introduced in May.

Cuomo said the state will do more work.

“We're going to hit the pause button here on this because … we need more information,” Cuomo said on a Long Island News Radio with Jay Oliver Thursday.

Cuomo referenced the notion of taking away licenses specifically.

“One of the ideas was to reissue the commercial licenses, basically, from the smaller operators to larger operators,” he said. “In other words, if you didn't have more than $15,000 in income, as a commercial fishing license, you would lose that commercial license so that it would go to someone who could catch more, generating more income. Yeah, but, you're then taking a license from the little guy and giving it to the bigger guys.”

Cuomo added, “My head and heart always are simpatico to the little guy.”

The state will “have to figure it out, but we have not yet figured it out,” he said. “And that's why until we study this, and we understand it, and we have a full public discussion, we're not going to be doing anything. So nothing's going to happen fast; it requires more thought, more discussion.”

That’s a relief to fishermen and state legislators who attended hearings and expressed concerns about taking away licenses.

John German, a commercial fisherman from Brookhaven who fishes out of Mt. Sinai Harbor, said he welcomed Cuomo decision to put the reform effort on hold. “I think we ought to take a little more time and get it right,” said German, 72, who is president of the Long Island Sound Lobstermen’s Association.

He said he supported the idea of making room in the fishery for younger fishermen, but with a caveat.

“I’d like to see some younger guys get in but not at the expense of the older guys,” he said.

Assemb. Fred Thiele (I-Sag Harbor), whose longtime work on fishing issues led to the plan for reform, said he agreed with Cuomo that the proposal to make income a requirement for keeping licenses was “problematic.”

“In general, I favor utilizing a carrot not a stick to reduce latent licenses,” Thiele said, referring to licenses that are long held but not actively used. The state found that around a third of the 950 food-fish licenses issued in the state are not actively fished.

Thiele said he’d rather see “incentives to surrender a license … a rule that takes the license away.”

Thiele suggested a license buyback program by the state, something Lapointe said he left out because there was no identified funding for it.

“The issue is how to pay for it,” Thiele said, adding that he’s floated the idea that offshore wind companies subsidize it as “part of the cost of doing business” in the state.

Cuomo in his radio remarks also said the state won’t regulate its way to reform, but rather through legislation.

“I want to go through the legislative process, and really understand this, because it will affect people's lives, he said. " … a lot of these commercial licenses have been in the family for decades, and they basically get passed down through the generations.”

Never a fan of Cuomo ...... but, this hit home:

"One of the ideas was to reissue the commercial licenses, basically, from the smaller operators to larger operators,” he said. “In other words, if you didn't have more than $15,000 in income, as a commercial fishing license, you would lose that commercial license so that it would go to someone who could catch more, generating more income. Yeah, but, you're then taking a license from the little guy and giving it to the bigger guys.”

Cuomo added, “My head and heart always are simpatico to the little guy.”

assemb. FredTheile went on to say :

" the proposal to make income a requirement for keeping licenses was “problematic.”

Thiele suggested a license buyback program by the state, something Lapointe said he left out because there was no identified funding for it."

Instead of a buy back, I still would like to see them make the license sellable. Someone like German, a 72 year old lifelong fisherman, could sell his license when he was no longer able to fish and put it towards his retirement.

Instead of a buy back, I still would like to see them make the license sellable. Someone like German, a 72 year old lifelong fisherman, could sell his license when he was no longer able to fish and put it towards his retirement.

Agreed, however if their a chance it could become like a taxi medallion (transferable permit) and people overpaying for a chance of owning one and losing everything I would have a concern.

the value would more than likely follow how good the fishery was ........ since things have been regulated to death, its not really, in my opinion, one of the best career paths at this point.

>
Yes Michael, things get published in the Federal Register and comments are requested, but at that point it's already a *fait accompli. *When is the last time public comments on proposed fishery regulations actually changed something, it's a rare event!

What needs to happen is to have more involved stakeholders, *i.e.* fishermen, sitting on the committees that formulate the regulations so any blaring errors can be discussed BEFORE they're in the Federal Register. By that point, the ship has usually long left the dock. The public comments sessions have devolved into a "Hi Fellas, we're from NOAA, ASFMC, etc. and we're here to help you so bend over and enjoy!!" They're just a Dog and Pony show to try to convince you they are doing the right thing.

Yeah, a helpful Federal Regulator, more rare than an honest used-car salesman...


It happens more often than you think.
Who do you think sits on the councils and commissions, school teachers or maybe retired chemists?
All of the comments at the public hearings are officially recorded and made available to all of the applicable commissioners or councilors and, if you ever bothered to attend a meeting, you would have discovered that many are reviewed in depth.

>
Most anglers I know are quite the opposite. For the most part, I find them intelligent and hard workers. I see them as willing to do anything they're told. But speaking for NY, you need to be pretty educated to know each and every reg, and they need to do more to educate anglers.

If they really want to know what we think they should use the Marine Registry to let us know what issues are on the table and what they need to do to reply.

The vast majority of anglers want away from the bickering and fighting over quotas but they do have an opinion.


Most anglers, don't have a clue as how things actually work, whether that's due to a lack of intelligence or simple non-interest we could debate all day.But your Fishery management moderator, seems to be totally ignorant about how and why things work, so why should we expect the average angler to be different. I try to explain things on this and other forums just to try and educate people, but the virulent self delusion of some people discourages me.